Comments on: Inequality and the Fantasy of American Upward Mobility: The “Great Gatsby Curve” http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2012/01/inequality-and-the-fantasy-of-american-upward-mobility-the-great-gatsby-curve/ Informed reflection on the events of the day Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:00:00 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.4.23 By: Scott http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2012/01/inequality-and-the-fantasy-of-american-upward-mobility-the-great-gatsby-curve/comment-page-1/#comment-23107 Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:21:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=11058#comment-23107 “I continue to be fascinated by the lack of interest in addressing the under classes in our economy.”

This is a very interesting point. The focus of political rhetoric right now appears to be predominantly on the middle classes. This while the number of Americans living in poverty is at its highest level since the Census has published figures on this. (I assume however by “under classes” you mean the impoverished).

However, I would question the notion that government programs have “failed.” This depends on how you might define failure. Without a social safety net, the lot of the “poor” would be much worse, and no doubt instances of homelessness would be much higher. Yet with regards to the actual prevention of poverty, most government programs do not seem to address this issue adequately but neither do they appear designed to do so. However, there are a lot of other factors at play, the disappearance of jobs that were once the foundation of the working class being one of them.

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By: DH http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2012/01/inequality-and-the-fantasy-of-american-upward-mobility-the-great-gatsby-curve/comment-page-1/#comment-23105 Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:41:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=11058#comment-23105 Michael Corey raises lots of good questions, based mainly it seems on his own experiences. These anecdotes are important, but as he points out, it’s dangerous to generalize from them. There’s a need to combine them with both common sense and a good understanding of what the data say. This post was narrowly focused on how the US compares to other countries on measures of point-in-time income inequality (the X axis of the figure) and a conventional measure of cross-generation income mobility (Y axis). The questions Michael raises require quite different data, and some of the figures I’ve posted in earlier “Metrics” blogs might bear on some of of them.

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By: DH http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2012/01/inequality-and-the-fantasy-of-american-upward-mobility-the-great-gatsby-curve/comment-page-1/#comment-23106 Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:41:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=11058#comment-23106 Michael Corey raises lots of good questions, based mainly it seems on his own experiences. These anecdotes are important, but as he points out, it’s dangerous to generalize from them. There’s a need to combine them with both common sense and a good understanding of what the data say. This post was narrowly focused on how the US compares to other countries on measures of point-in-time income inequality (the X axis of the figure) and a conventional measure of cross-generation income mobility (Y axis). The questions Michael raises require quite different data, and some of the figures I’ve posted in earlier “Metrics” blogs might bear on some of of them.

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By: Michael Corey http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2012/01/inequality-and-the-fantasy-of-american-upward-mobility-the-great-gatsby-curve/comment-page-1/#comment-23070 Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:33:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=11058#comment-23070 There was another front-page story that appeared in the New York Times that paints a somewhat different picture of the top 1%. The interactive feature that accompanies the story is especially interesting. The graphic provides a visual display of the many types of occupations that comprise the top 1%. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/15/business/the-1-percent-paint-a-more-nuanced-portrait-of-the-rich.html?_r=1&emc=eta1. To me, it is a much better profile than the stereotype that is usually offered. It also suggests to me that there may be much more mobility within careers and between generations than is noted. My guess is that if the careers of people were examined, it would show that they passed through many income levels, and many of those in the top one percent only were at those earning levels during their prime years.

It is always dangerous to generalize from our own life experiences; however, sometimes the observations are useful. Over my career in business, I’ve had a chance to meet thousands of people; many of them have been very successful. Most came from very ordinary backgrounds, and some emerged from families that experienced significant hardships and challenges. I and other members of senior management in my company mentored aspiring high potential employees from very diverse backgrounds. The most common characteristics of people who been very successful in my view are: aptitude, acquired and applied skills, excellent interpersonal skills, relevant educational achievements, outstanding performance over time, an industrious work ethic, the propensity to create value; and being in the right place at the right time. Risk and reward are equally important for entrepreneurs. Many more fail than succeed. Knowing someone and connections aren’t substitutes for these other characteristics.

Is there good data on the number of people within the top 1% over time? If so, I would like to see how this has changed. I would also like to see the composition of the strata within the top 1%. I have a feeling that is a much more interesting story than concentrating on the relatively small number of billionaires that exist.

Rather than concentrating on The Great Gatsby Curve, I would like to see graphic representations of how the structure of the economy has changed in the United States. My guess is that a huge part of our problem is the reduction of employment opportunities in major better paying sectors of the economy. If that is the case, then we can ask, what needs to be done to change this.

I continue to be fascinated by the lack of interest in addressing the under classes in our economy. This has been and continues to be a huge problem. In my opinion, changing our tax codes will not significantly change this chronic issue. Most governmental programs have failed.

Are union workers always better off than non-union workers in comparable industries and types of facilities? I’ve had substantial experience with both types of facilities. For me, the answer is that it depends on the facility and the way it operates. Alienation has been a problem with many types of manufacturing jobs. It can be addressed through high performance teams. These can be put in place at both union and non-union facilities; however, it is much easier to put in place at new facilities than existing facilities. One non-union facility than I am familiar with became one of the world’s highest quality and most productive facilities of its type with well-compensated and satisfied employees. I am familiar with parts of non-union facilities that changed parts of them with good results. It is easier to implement more innovative compensation systems (pay for knowledge, multi-craft premiums, gain sharing, profit sharing, and other performance based approaches) in non-unionized facilities. Organizational culture and contracts frequently impede organizational change. Restrictive old-style contracts tend to foster alienation and reduce productivity.

Unless we are willing to find ways to reshape the composition of the economy and creatively address the underclass issues, things may get worse.

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By: Michael Corey http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2012/01/inequality-and-the-fantasy-of-american-upward-mobility-the-great-gatsby-curve/comment-page-1/#comment-23069 Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:33:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=11058#comment-23069 There was another front-page story that appeared in the New York Times that paints a somewhat different picture of the top 1%. The interactive feature that accompanies the story is especially interesting. The graphic provides a visual display of the many types of occupations that comprise the top 1%. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/15/business/the-1-percent-paint-a-more-nuanced-portrait-of-the-rich.html?_r=1&emc=eta1. To me, it is a much better profile than the stereotype that is usually offered. It also suggests to me that there may be much more mobility within careers and between generations than is noted. My guess is that if the careers of people were examined, it would show that they passed through many income levels, and many of those in the top one percent only were at those earning levels during their prime years.

It is always dangerous to generalize from our own life experiences; however, sometimes the observations are useful. Over my career in business, I’ve had a chance to meet thousands of people; many of them have been very successful. Most came from very ordinary backgrounds, and some emerged from families that experienced significant hardships and challenges. I and other members of senior management in my company mentored aspiring high potential employees from very diverse backgrounds. The most common characteristics of people who been very successful in my view are: aptitude, acquired and applied skills, excellent interpersonal skills, relevant educational achievements, outstanding performance over time, an industrious work ethic, the propensity to create value; and being in the right place at the right time. Risk and reward are equally important for entrepreneurs. Many more fail than succeed. Knowing someone and connections aren’t substitutes for these other characteristics.

Is there good data on the number of people within the top 1% over time? If so, I would like to see how this has changed. I would also like to see the composition of the strata within the top 1%. I have a feeling that is a much more interesting story than concentrating on the relatively small number of billionaires that exist.

Rather than concentrating on The Great Gatsby Curve, I would like to see graphic representations of how the structure of the economy has changed in the United States. My guess is that a huge part of our problem is the reduction of employment opportunities in major better paying sectors of the economy. If that is the case, then we can ask, what needs to be done to change this.

I continue to be fascinated by the lack of interest in addressing the under classes in our economy. This has been and continues to be a huge problem. In my opinion, changing our tax codes will not significantly change this chronic issue. Most governmental programs have failed.

Are union workers always better off than non-union workers in comparable industries and types of facilities? I’ve had substantial experience with both types of facilities. For me, the answer is that it depends on the facility and the way it operates. Alienation has been a problem with many types of manufacturing jobs. It can be addressed through high performance teams. These can be put in place at both union and non-union facilities; however, it is much easier to put in place at new facilities than existing facilities. One non-union facility than I am familiar with became one of the world’s highest quality and most productive facilities of its type with well-compensated and satisfied employees. I am familiar with parts of non-union facilities that changed parts of them with good results. It is easier to implement more innovative compensation systems (pay for knowledge, multi-craft premiums, gain sharing, profit sharing, and other performance based approaches) in non-unionized facilities. Organizational culture and contracts frequently impede organizational change. Restrictive old-style contracts tend to foster alienation and reduce productivity.

Unless we are willing to find ways to reshape the composition of the economy and creatively address the underclass issues, things may get worse.

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By: Scott http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2012/01/inequality-and-the-fantasy-of-american-upward-mobility-the-great-gatsby-curve/comment-page-1/#comment-22980 Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:27:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=11058#comment-22980 If you’re born into wealth, you have a much better chance of aquiring the social and political capital to attain positions of influence and power. In this sense Romney is in no way was a “self made man.” He, and most other presidential candidates, are part of the aristocracy. And if you wonder why it was the supposed “best and brightest” that wrecked the economy, you might have to re-think the idea that any of them truly “earned” what they received. In a level playing field, many of them would be lucky to rise higher than floor manager at a Wall Mart. (Not to disparage that group however; they may just find themselves having to make a more honest living.)

Yet no one necessarily gets to where they are through their own efforts alone. They have had plenty of help along the way, and not just from their wealthy families. Warren Buffett, even though he was born into a well off family, still acknowledges the debt he owes to society for much of what he has. And, accordingly, he is willing to give back. Only egomaniacs believe they’ve earned what they’ve gotten throught their own efforts alone, and thus owe society nothing.

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By: DH http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2012/01/inequality-and-the-fantasy-of-american-upward-mobility-the-great-gatsby-curve/comment-page-1/#comment-22969 Wed, 18 Jan 2012 21:53:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=11058#comment-22969 Good point, inheritance and especially the recent decline in the taxation of inherited wealth should be part of the outrage. At the same time, I’m pretty sure that the source of nearly all of Romney’s wealth was Bain Capital, not inheritance. And I suspect that most of those in the top 1%, and even many in the top .1%, “earned” their way there as opposed to inheriting it. Of course they did it with huge advantages of education and networks, and their wealth is now being passed on with tax rates that are pitifully low…

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By: Tom Hall http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2012/01/inequality-and-the-fantasy-of-american-upward-mobility-the-great-gatsby-curve/comment-page-1/#comment-22967 Wed, 18 Jan 2012 21:17:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=11058#comment-22967 This is an excellent article. However, there is a component missing in this discussion. In the neighborhood of all people who are rich INHERITED their money, they did NOT earn it: e.g. Romney. It still remains the case that the best way to join the 1% is to be born into it. Alas, I have seen little new info on this since Domhoff’s Who Rules American? and writings of E. Digby Baltzell, many decades ago. This point badly needs to be updated with more complete information.
Tom Hall, retired sociologist

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