Comments on: Does Freedom Trickle Down? http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2011/09/does-freedom-trickle-down/ Informed reflection on the events of the day Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:00:00 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.4.23 By: Scott http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2011/09/does-freedom-trickle-down/comment-page-1/#comment-19880 Thu, 03 Nov 2011 02:23:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=7506#comment-19880 I think the reference to the 2001 Freedom House report is from Wikipedia; I would say, first, that correlation is not causation, which is the Conservative’s claim in this instance, and second, I don’t dispute the overall claim that economic freedom correlates with political freedom, however, there are plenty of instances in Heritage’s Index where countries with high economic freedom have low political freedom, enough cases that call into question the necessary link between the two; furthermore; third, I looked at specific measures in the index to see how they correlate with economic freedom, such as government spending, which is often cited by Conservatives as a danger to freedom, and many of the countries near the top of the list have high government spending as a % of GDP as well as a high degree of economic freedom; furthermore, since those countries also have “mixed economies,” that is, they are social (as in ‘socialism’) democracies. This contradicts the claim that socialism necessarily leads to tyranny. Lastly, I would just re-iterate that the two indices which I looked at report opposite trends: economic freedom was increasing in the world while political freedom was decreasing; admittedly, a more thorough analysis of the correlation is necessary to determine the most salient factors for both economic and political freedom. It appears that taxation and government spending aren’t the decisive factors.

Also, Jeffrey Sachs claims that there is no correlation between economic freedom and economic growth. I think he’s right. But it seems I left some things out, but Miller’s conclusion does not contradict mine: “So it seems that the Index of Economic Freedom in practice tells us little about the cost of abandoning free market policies and offers little proof that government intervention into the economy would either retard economic growth or contract political freedom.”

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By: tnakaya http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2011/09/does-freedom-trickle-down/comment-page-1/#comment-19513 Thu, 27 Oct 2011 10:47:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=7506#comment-19513 I’m not originally from the United States, and my background might affect my view on freedom, however, I personally think that freedom is most overused and misused word in the political discourse in the US.

I agree with the author that conservatives’ arguments about freedom divert attention from dangers posed from the concentration of wealth and power, and that conservatives’ arguments focusing on the government’s negative impacts on its people’s freedom is a prime example of the diversion.

I like the part in which the author showed that economic freedom isn’t the primary cause of overall freedom. However, according to Freedom House, economic freedom and political freedom are significantly correlated to each other.  I wonder what the author’s response to the claim is.

I also like where the author points out that taxes and government spending are only two of many factors in determining economic freedom.  Heritage Foundation used eight other factors to determine economic freedom.  These ten factors are averaged equally into a total score.  I wonder how appropriate weighting equally all the factors is.

According to John Miller’s 2005 article in ‘Dollars & Sense’, Heritage Foundation’s the Index of Economic Freedom, measures government spending/size as the change in government spending instead of its actual size (as % gross domestic product). Miller also points out that the Index of Economic Freedom gave a lower score to the US’s government spending/size than those  of Sweden and Denmark because the index uses the change in government spending in spite of the US’s smaller size of government spending as % gross domestic product. He also notes regulations, including requirements for transparency in corporate accounting, environmental ones, regulations of job-related health and safety lower the country’s ranking. Miller also states that Heritage Foundation’s Index doesn’t properly measures tax burden because the index doesn’t measure effective tax rates which are conditional on what part of corporate profits and personal income are taxed.

I’m curious about the trend in the rule of law in the US as well as those in other countries.  I also wonder how transparency of the government affects overall freedom.

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By: J Coles54 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2011/09/does-freedom-trickle-down/comment-page-1/#comment-18253 Sun, 09 Oct 2011 00:16:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=7506#comment-18253 The decline in freedom in the US should be read as the rise of corporatism, which is, by definition, fascism: the merger of corporation and state.

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By: Scott http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2011/09/does-freedom-trickle-down/comment-page-1/#comment-16398 Wed, 07 Sep 2011 14:20:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=7506#comment-16398 I think that one of the reasons consensus for healthcare reform was not achieved was the massive disinformation campaign that Republicans, and some Democrats, threw at it. But the fact that even many progressives opposed the bill does not bode well for its efficacy. Yet the claim that national health care systems necessarily erodes freedom is simply not true, and the Heritage Foundation’s index shows.

It is true that, “The controversial point is which State activities enhance economic productivity and which detract from it.” The debate that follows is often over-simplified and particular interests are often framed in general terms, as in the saying, “What’s good for X is good for America,” where X would be any corporation lobbying for more “economic freedom.”

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By: Michael Corey http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2011/09/does-freedom-trickle-down/comment-page-1/#comment-16375 Tue, 06 Sep 2011 23:28:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=7506#comment-16375 Raising the concept of economic freedom is useful. As with most concepts, it is complex and needs to be considered analytically. The Heritage Foundation shows how it operationalized the term. I suspect others might do it somewhat differently. Only in a theoretical world does a pure state of economic freedom or lack of economic freedom exist. As I see it, the rankings provided suggest that most other freedoms fair better in countries rated in the first quartile of economic freedom than in the bottom quartile.

I believe that experience has shown that, State activity may either enhance the prospects for economic productivity or detract from it. The controversial point is which State activities enhance economic productivity and which detract from it. This is where most of the arguments take place. Government policies and regulations influence economic growth positively and negatively.

In my opinion, one of the reasons that healthcare reform is still being debated is because it was pushed through without obtaining consensus for it, and left most of the implementation to regulators. Few Americans (including legislators) understood what was in the bill before it was passed, and its nature is being shaped as bureaucrats promulgate regulations. Had a different political process been used, there may have been less uncertainty about it, how it is going to work and what’s its impacts are likely to be. Uncertainty tends to lead to gridlock as far as decision-making is concerned.

It seems to me that for decades we have been empowering an Imperial Presidency supported by a massive bureaucracy led by appointed regulators, and taking power away from the other branches of government. Considering the relatively low turn out in most elections, there is also a disconnect between many citizens and their representatives. I think that this is problematic.

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By: Anonymous http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2011/09/does-freedom-trickle-down/comment-page-1/#comment-16346 Tue, 06 Sep 2011 04:23:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=7506#comment-16346 There is a lot in the comment that I think you need to clarify or at least think through more rigorously. You can be conservative with sympathy for the Tea Party, but you cannot make the connections between a real (by which I mean true) limited (to no) government. The Tea Party (and RP) come up on both sides of the debate. They make nonsense arguments for deregulating the markets (have they forgotten what happened just a few years ago, all of which was the result of aggressive deregulation) but they want a say — they believe it is the place of the government to have a say— in one’s sexual orientation, reproductive rights, etc. If you really don’t care what anyone else does with his/her life (within reason, of course) that conviction means nothing in terms of your political affiliation.

Hypotheticals like the one you put forth about Texas can also be said about the US— in theory we can support ourselves, in THEORY. But the world is not a simple place.

Not true that most Republicans tend toward libertarianism—- old school Republicans do not.

And no revolution came out Hitler— mass murder does not always ties to revolution.

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By: Jeffrey C. Goldfarb http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2011/09/does-freedom-trickle-down/comment-page-1/#comment-16342 Tue, 06 Sep 2011 01:23:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=7506#comment-16342 I think that Scott’s central point is that economic freedom is not the only kind of freedom and is not the basis of all other freedoms. This is a fundamental point. I am planning on developing this in a future post. But please let’s not make assertions that suggest that state activity necessarily undermines economic productivity, or take it as given that the healthcare reform we finally got is undermining economic productivity. This is little more than a political talking point, supported by assertion rather than evidence.

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By: Scott http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2011/09/does-freedom-trickle-down/comment-page-1/#comment-16337 Mon, 05 Sep 2011 21:30:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=7506#comment-16337 Points well taken. However, for one thing, I don’t think the stereotypical “liberal mindset” is something which most Liberals actually possess. There are some snobs no doubt, but I believe this stereotype has been fed my mass media and the culture wars. The everyday reality is, more often than not, something much different. Yet if enough people feel that there is such a “liberal mindset,” the belief could evently take on a life of its own. I suppose it already has.

And I think you raise a very good point: “The problem is getting to the point where we have both economic freedom and economic vitality.” Many countries have been able to find a balance between the two. However, in the United States it has become a zero-sum game: “More freedom for you, means less freedom for me.” One of the solutions I believe is a sense of “common sacrifice.” If you’re going to have a nation that isn’t a fascist state, where it’s winner take all, then you should take the concept seriously. But Americans are really having a difficult time coming to a consensus on who should sacrifice what. “Culture wars” and “class wars” don’t help matters much. They erode trust.

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By: Rmissourimule http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2011/09/does-freedom-trickle-down/comment-page-1/#comment-16317 Mon, 05 Sep 2011 15:45:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=7506#comment-16317 I have no problems with unions. I have been in unions in the past. My beef is solely with public unions is that they sit on both sides of the table, negotiating their pay and benefits and electing the politicians who will do their bidding. The taxpayers get the shaft and the bill.

Freedom is a relative thing. I’m sure that most Germans in the 1930s felt relatively “free” as they were enjoying their economic boom. Freedom in the midst of poverty is no better because a hungry man doesn’t put a high premium on economic freedom when his belly is empty. The problem is getting to the point where we have both economic freedom and economic vitality. One doesn’t have to be an Einstein to realize that the situation in the United States today is going to destroy our way of life. Paying people to be unemployed is not the solution.

I would concede that the minimum wage does not appreciably affect the unemployment figures as numerous studies have looked at this and concluded the impact is miniscule.

There can be little doubt, however, that benighted concoctions such as Obamacare are hamstringing business with rules and regulations that hold down employment. If we had a truly free market of medical care it almost certainly restrain costs. Where we ran off the rails was after WWII when employer paid medical care was offered as it was, at that time, relatively inexpensive. Today it is eating us alive. And the reason is quite simple. It is paid by someone else and not the actual recipient of the medical services. No one values freedom that much when they are in serious medical problems or hungry.

I say all this because it seems that almost everything we are doing is the wrong thing. If it could be established another nation had a better way to provide for its citizens why didn’t we simply adopt their way of governance and not reinvent the wheel?

Bottom line is that freedom is a devalued currency when our economy is in the toilet. And from most indications we are decidedly heading in the wrong direction. I truly believe that a revolution is entirely possible within this decade. We barely survived without one during the Great Depression. That is a historical fact.

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By: Scott http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/2011/09/does-freedom-trickle-down/comment-page-1/#comment-16312 Mon, 05 Sep 2011 15:16:00 +0000 http://www.deliberatelyconsidered.com/?p=7506#comment-16312 Sounds like ebm120 is a “true believer,” and a snarky one at that. My larger pointreally is that freedom is defined from a particular perspective. When examining the “Labor Freedom” category of Heritage Foundation’s index we see that this factor often stands in inverse proportion to Freedom House’s findings, from its report on “The Global State of Worker’s Rights.” That is, countries with a high degree of “Labor Freedom” according to Heritage Foundation’s index will be considered “Repressive,” or worse, regarding labor rights, by Freedom House. For example, according to the Heritage Foundation, Singapore has a very high degree of “Labor Freedom” while being “Repressive” according to Freedom House. The United States has a relatively high degree of Labor Freedom, 95.7, highest of all those in the top ten, with the exception of Bahrain (Repressive) and Singapore (Repressive), while being only “Mostly Free” according to Freedom House. In fact, in authoritarian countries, labor rights tend to be poor, so it is tempting to conclude that labor freedom affects freedom in general. However, it will be sufficient to conclude that labor unions do not necessarily inhibit economic freedom. The claim that they do is “class warfare.”

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